Inspired Execution

Anand: I believe that as we evolve to the next version of digital transformation, it is going to be about helping stakeholders make better decisions.

Narrator: Inspired Execution, hosted by DataStax Chairman and CEO, Chet Kapoor follows the journeys of tech leaders from the world's largest enterprises and fastest-growing startups.

Narrator: Joining the podcast today are Anand Deshpande and Sandeep Kalra. Anand started Persistent Systems, a global enterprise focused on engineering and modernization, more than 30 years ago. You'll hear his take on digital transformation 2.0, the one question you should ask to get the most out of your data, and the top three things entrepreneurs need to get a business off the ground. Sandeep has spent his whole career in the software industry and became CEO at Persistent during the pandemic. He shares the lessons he's learned while leading through a crisis and the best practices for inspiring people on the road to transformation.

Chet: Anand, you founded Persistent over 30 years ago. Why did you decide to start the company?

Anand: So, first, of course, all of us who come from India always had this thought at that time, at least in the '90s – a bunch of things happened around that time. I don't know if you know, but, N. Vittal was secretary DoE – he came over to the Bay Area. They set up these software technology park schemes. They invited people to say, "Hey, we are interested in doing something more in software, and we want people from the Bay Area to come back." And it just felt right in my timing. I was thinking about what next, and it just made sense to come back to India and do something from here. Before I got back, I had started Persistent and I sort of knew I was doing this and I was able to connect with potential customers. I had a business opportunity to do the work from India while there was a customer who had already committed to giving me the work from the US. So, I already had a business going when I went back. So, that was much easier to sort of get that going at that time.

Chet: It's been awesome, Anand, what you've accomplished. Being a deep computer scientist and what you've done with Persistent is absolutely amazing. You've done something very interesting recently as well. You run a nonprofit with your family, the deAsra Foundation, and the mission is to empower mass entrepreneurship across the world. What inspired you to start this organization?

Anand: So, again, one of those things, you have this thing that you should “earn, learn, and return.” And, it was always something philanthropic, something that would be a mission that could last for a long time. And from where I'm sitting here, job creation is one of our biggest challenges. So if you think about it in India, right now, we have more than 25 million people at every age in India. So, we really need 18 million jobs, and most of those cannot happen through government or large companies.

Anand: It is important that everyone finds a way to, or we make it so much easier for individuals to become self-employed and entrepreneurs, that it just made sense to go ahead and do something in this field. So, I started about six years back, and we've been pushing this whole mission of trying to get individuals to become self-employed entrepreneurs. And it's gone well. We are now at 125,000 businesses that we have supported or encouraged or helped in some form or the other. We have templatized everything that a small business would need. There's no reason why everyone needs to reinvent the wheel in some sense. So, that's the mission.

Chet: You're not going to get better or be more successful because you do accounting better than somebody else, right? If you have a template, just use it.

Chet: As you look at the 125,000 businesses that you've somehow worked with, is there any specific quality that stands out from somebody who is a job seeker for them to become a job creator?

Anand: Actually in India, it's kind of very strange. People who don't get jobs actually go and start businesses. So, it's not by choice. Most people end up being job creators without necessarily– If somebody could get a government job in the group that we deal with, they would take it, any day. But not everybody is going to get one. So, they end up starting something.

Anand: When you start something in India, there are so many ways you can fail that it is not funny at all. So, the idea was that there are so many potholes in the road as you do your own startup. So, if you land into a pothole, we'll have something for you to help you get out of it. That's really how we think about it. And, the three most important things that we find people are looking for right now: one of them is of course getting loans, funding of some sort. Moneylenders lend at about 18% to 24% interest rate, which is certainly not viable for these businesses. They need organized credit, and that is not easy to get in India.

Anand: Lately, digital marketing, "How do I get online?" "How do I sell online?" Has become a big issue as well. And of course, every time you want to...How do you sell and get customers is always the key requirement for any small business, or for that matter, any business? And these things don't change.

Chet: Sandeep, you spent 14 years at HCL, which is a massive IT services organization, been doing it for a long time. You've been CEO of Persistent for two years. You became the CEO in the middle of a pandemic, or just before it. What is the one thing that you've learned personally and professionally during these times?

Sandeep: Pandemic times, being a CEO is an interesting thing. It was a very interesting learning. The good part for me was I'd been at Persistent for a little while before becoming the CEO. So, I knew the team and that helped in navigating the pandemic, which was like navigating in absolute uncertain waters. One of the most important things that I learned through this journey in the pandemic time, was the resilience of the human race, and the ability to reinvent in these challenging times. This applies to both the personal and professional sides. On one side, each one of us was restricted to the home, worried about family, extended family, and the likes. On the other side, it was about keeping the business running, knowing the team deeper, knowing the customers, engaging the customers, partners such as yourselves, and our global workforce in these most uncertain of times.

Sandeep: Empathy found a very new meaning, a real meaning with the pandemic waves coming through, first the US, then India, and the second wave in India, and the likes. It was very humbling to see the team members struggle, deal with significant adversity, yet very passionately work together and keep the business humming. Deliver seamlessly to the customers on all the commitments. All in all, this was a time where one learned to unlearn the traditional ways of looking at life and work and rediscover them. So it was very interesting navigating through this.

Chet: Anand the question for you, you've been in the data space for a long time. I think you would agree that enterprises have gone through the transformation journey. They started with, "Let's go off and do mobile apps." Then they went off and said, "Cloud." I think the next thing is data modernization. And all this, obviously with the desire to reduce TCO, but also to actually get agility. A – What are your thoughts on the progression that people have gone through, enterprises have gone through? You've seen a lot through the years. And the second thing is; What is exciting for you in the data space at large?

Anand: As you have all observed that people have been converting this whole data space as sort of being broader, into what is being referred to as digital transformation. So let's say we call it that. And then digital transformation 1.0, as I call it, has been about providing a better experience to stakeholders – employees, customers, everyone else. So, the purpose of data aggregation, or bringing all the data together, so all the Hadoop and everything else that we did, all the analytics, has been about trying to provide a better experience to stakeholders and users. I believe that as we evolve to the next version of digital transformation, it is going to be about helping stakeholders make better decisions. That is a fundamental difference in terms of where I see looking forward, as compared to what has been in the past.

Anand: I think experience itself is not enough. People are looking for ways to say that, "How do you make my job easier?" Or, "How does every individual who is touching these systems is looking for getting things done more effectively and more efficiently?" So, this whole concept of dashboards, or seeing lots of charts is not becoming relevant anymore. People are more interested in saying, "I have a decision to make, I have three choices. Tell me what the scenarios are, and help me make a decision so that I can get work done faster and better."

Anand: So, the human in the loop is starting to become very important. We are asking very different kinds of questions, rather than just saying, "Show me the data." That is going to have long-term implications on how things are going to come in from data to AI to machine learning because the purpose for why you would do machine learning is evolving at this moment. I think one other important thing that I’ve been dabbling around or thinking a lot about, is this whole concept of, "How do I represent what I want?" So, if I want a better decision, I should be able to articulate what that means. I think that is a gap at the moment. Once we get to that point where we are able to articulate clearly what we are looking for, then getting the systems to respond to that would be a lot easier.

Chet: Beautiful articulation of the different phases of digital transformation. As you interact with your colleagues in the industry, do you think most global 2000 companies get that it was first about experiences, and now it's about decision making? Do you think they're thinking of it that way? Are they manifesting it that way?

Anand: I think they're starting to, but I think we are still a long way to go. It's very hard to ask the right question, actually speaking. And, the problem is that the data strategy for the last say 10 years has been, "Let's make all the data available, let it be there." And then we'll just put it all together. We'll have a warehouse and we'll pull all kinds of reports off of it. We will build whatever, a Hadoop-based, multidimensional, multi-modal. So, everything was getting collected. But there wasn't enough done about what is the best way to consume it? So, the easy thing was, okay, I'm going to show you a dashboard. I'll show you all the possible things. I'll give you 200 knobs. You can keep adjusting them. But, as you get to a point where you want to use the data, this sort of becomes not very valuable.

Anand: The question you want to ask is, "What do I do next?" I'll give you an example of what I mean by this. We run a software company with more than 1500 to 2000 different projects at the same time. So, we have been collecting data about all kinds of things that happen in terms of the artifacts of who has been adding what code, what happened to various things, and a whole bunch of data sets have been collected. Then, we also have dashboards that say what percentage of the projects are in red or in green or whatever else. If you go through these CMM process-type guys, they'll give you hundreds of charts, and we have all of them.

Anand: Unfortunately, that doesn't help any customer. So, the question I've been trying to ask our team internally is, "Can you tell me which projects are going to be in trouble two weeks from now?" When you ask that question– “Don't tell me everything else, just tell me those projects which are going to be in trouble two weeks from now, and tell me why they're in trouble, and what can I do about it?” Then your sort of thinking completely changes.

Anand: We found that the data we were collecting was not entirely valuable to answer these questions. And, some of these questions had fairly simplistic data sets that were capable of answering that question as to why this project is going to go late. One easy thing that we did, just for an example, was we started to get people to monitor who's staying late at night and working crazy hours. So, when the project is going to get into trouble two weeks from now, engineers tend to work harder. That's easier to measure than the artifacts that they're producing.

Chet: It is not big data; it is lean data, and it is lean real-time data. Because the one thing that we're finding as we have these conversations, is these dashboards are interesting to some business analysts, but the speed at which people are making decisions, whether it's consumers or people who are serving the consumers, needs to be near real-time. So, you have to make some of these things happen as close to the decision point as possible with the relevant data. It's not going to come by 30 knobs, or 30 variables, it's going to come by the three things that matter, as an example.

Anand: Exactly, and I'd add one more thing to this. So, I find that we are moving to a lower aperture on the interfaces and devices. You can think of things like an Alexa, or you're talking to your device, or you're driving in and driving out and you're talking to your car. I want to know what should I do next? That's the question I want to ask. Not necessarily look at a chart and make a decision. So, when you're asking these questions, which are being asked or responded to through your watch or some lower aperture or device, the data systems need to be far more evolved to be able to provide you with what you're looking for at the right time for the right person.

Anand: That's personalization, and that's where I think AI and machine learning are going to play a big role in how data is going to get consumed. I'm pretty excited about what I see right now in terms of what is possible. There is a lot happening, and I think this is a really good area to work in and do research as well. You guys are very much in the thick of it. I think you have the storage and the data sets and everything else, and as people start to consume the data for getting insights, the platforms that you provide become very critical for getting this to happen.

Chet: We continue to partition the world between the deep lane and the fast lane, and we are super excited. That's where this lean, real-time stuff comes from. Not to say that it replaces everything that happens in the deep lane with the Hadoops and the warehouses and all that. But everyone that we talk to says, “That's great, but can I put some models that JavaScript people can use for apps?” So, anybody that thinks that a lot's happening on technology now hasn't taken a step back and seen what could happen. I'm really excited about it.

Chet: So Sandeep, we can keep geeking out about technology, and we can talk about the fast lane, the deep lane. We can talk about experiences, decision-making. But, as you talk to CIOs, and you spend a lot of time talking to CIOs, real acceleration for anyone within an enterprise that they lead comes from people–changing cultures, and inspiring them through the transformation. What are some best practices that you've seen? The ones that you say, "Wow, these people did it right." What are the two or three things that really successful companies are doing correctly from a people culture point of view?

Sandeep: So, Chet, I'll take our own example. You have to eat your own philosophies, your own dogfood, if you may say so. So, in the last two and a half years that we have seen in my time at Persistent, we have taken our own company in good times and in pandemic times and accelerated the growth. We are built on the strong employee culture and customer-centricity that Anand has established over the last 30 years. We have taken our people, aligned their passion to a common set of goals. So we have a rallying cry in the company towards a common set of goals. We have clearly communicated the expectations from various stakeholders. We have created connectedness across different parts of the organization, not only internally, but with external partners, such as yourselves. We have defined and measured what matters, and we have rewarded the right behaviors, in line with what we want our organization to look like, feel like, behave like, on a day-to-day basis.

Sandeep: While doing this, we have led from the front. We've absolutely been by the team’s side, supporting them both professionally and personally in pandemic times. If you look at our own results, we have delivered industry-leading performance. We are today the fastest-growing company in our sector, on revenue terms and even on profitability terms, we have transformed a lot. All of this has been what we preach to our customers as well. So, when we go to a CIO organization, we basically work alongside them. We try and understand on one side their culture, on the other side what they're trying to do with their customers. How can we help them become more effective in solving business problems? Then converting that into, how can technology enable all of that? Whether those business problems are internal facing, or revenue-bearing, external facing. So, all of those are the kind of things that we do both internally and externally.

Chet: That is really, really well put. I think if you're a user, you will just be more passionate about what you're building. The best products and services are delivered by people who are trying to solve problems for themselves. That was very well articulated. Thank you. Sandeep, who inspires you?

Sandeep: In my professional journey, I work with many great leaders, whether it was in my earlier years at HCL or my years at Harman. Now at Persistent, I work very closely with Anand. But, I'll say the two folks who inspire me the most are my parents. The reason being, they were a part of the erstwhile independent India, what is now Pakistan side of it. When they moved over at that time of partition, they had a very humble beginning, and they brought us as kids– they taught us the core values. They shaped me into the person I am. They invested in our education, and so on. Whatever I have achieved, all my siblings have achieved, a lot of credit goes to them. So, they are the people that inspire me the most. And outside of that, there are obviously many business leaders that I have learned from and who have shaped me, including Anand who is on the call.

Chet: Anand, who inspires you?

Anand: Actually, I have been inspired by my father. I don't know if you've ever met him, but he used to work for me, actually. He worked with me at Persistent for 25 years. So, I had the very interesting experience of being at home with him where he's the father and decides what happens, and at work, I'm his boss. He is extremely intense, very principled in many ways. He's one of those who would not let anything just go by. So, if it has to be done, it has to be done right, and it has to be done well. That's something that he has always been, and he has inspired all of us to do that. So, whether it is simple things, he's just so organized that makes it pretty hard to keep pace, but it keeps your antennas clear and you know exactly where you are headed. Your moral compass is clean because of how he has always worked.

Chet: That's a great response. By the way, for both of you, and for all of us who have our parents as their role models– we can only hope that our kids can at least have 1/10th of the same regard that we have for our parents, that they have for us. So, I don't know how it'll work out, but, just 1/10th will be fine.

Anand: We'll have to do something to make that happen for them, right. It's just as much our responsibility. Don't leave it to your kids Chet.

Chet: I know. [laughs]

Anand: It's our responsibility to be that for them. And I'm sure they will look at it that way. I find our kids are equally inspiring. I find I'm very inspired by interacting with our kids as always. You get to learn a lot of new things. So, the new generation I'm very optimistic about.

Chet: Certainly a lot of great music. That's for sure. Sandeep and Anand, here's a question for each of you. What's something that each of you has learned from each other?

Anand: Okay, let me go first. Sandeep, I like his intensity and his passion, and his hardworking capacity. He has demonstrated how to get people to move at all levels. I've been very impressed by that. I must say, I didn't know Sandeep before he joined Persistent. I only got to know him after he joined Persistent, but I have learned a lot in the last two years.

Sandeep: So from my perspective, Chet, I did not know Anand. I knew of Anand obviously, because, Persistent has been a very strong name in the industry. I used to work for HCL, as you rightly mentioned. So, I would look at Persistent as a company that was growing very well, a small company that came out of nowhere. And in 10 years, the way I was watching the revenues, the positioning many good things, and so on. So, I had followed Anand, without Anand knowing that I knew Anand from that perspective.

Sandeep: Now, what I've learned from Anand in the last two and a half years of working together. Corporate governance is the best part. Obviously, there are many, many things to learn from Anand. But the way Anand has set up the corporate governance, the independence of the board, the integrity, the accountability, the transparency in the organization. There's a lot of things to be learned. You should see him run a board meeting. Right from an executive summary to the way the nine yards of the board meeting are run, very efficiently. There's a lot to be learned from that. So, that's my biggest learning among many others that I've had working with him over the last two and a half years.

Chet: The next set of questions are rapid-fire, quick response questions. So, I'm going to start with you Anand. What new technology or technologies are you most excited about?

Anand: I've been trying to figure out more about programming cells, so synthetic biology. So, I'm really excited about what is going to happen in biology in the next few years. That's something I've been, I've been reading at the moment.

Chet: Sandeep, what are you reading or listening to right now?

Sandeep: Two things. One is, "Purpose Driven Organizations." Second is, "The Workplace of the Future." Because a number of these things are evolving with these pandemic times. So, pretty interesting areas.

Chet: For sure. Especially the workplace part. It is definitely, the last 18 months have taught us that it is going to change forever. Anand, what's the one word or phrase that defines a great leader?

Anand: High integrity.

Chet: Sandeep?

Sandeep: Drive, direction, empathy. It takes a lot of drive to keep going. Day after day, you have to be doing things better than what you did yesterday, and you have to be hungry to be able to do that on an ongoing basis. You have to have a navigational compass of where you want to go; where you want to take that team along; and you have to be empathetic and you relate to the people and accommodate different kinds of people with different kinds of needs and motivations and everything else. Long answer, but that's what it is.

Chet: Gentlemen, this has been phenomenal. I really appreciate you taking the time. I know it's late, Anand in India, and I know it's in the middle of the day here Sandeep. So, thank you very much for doing this with us. I certainly had a lot of fun. Thank you.

Narrator: The latest iteration of the digital transformation is about helping stakeholders make better decisions. To get the most out of your data, ask yourself, "What do I want to do next?" Inspiring your team starts with aligning people's passions to a common set of goals. When you reach success, always remember to pay it forward. In Anand's words, "Learn, earn, and return.”

Narrator: Thank you so much for tuning in to today's episode of the Inspired Execution podcast. Don't forget to subscribe, rate, and review the show, and drop us any questions or feedback at inspiredexecution@datastax.com.